On Love, Music, and Making Music with Your Lover

The Future of the Family Unit

Why Houses are Better than Kids

We met Thom and Rose for dinner at a South Philly gastro-pub. Together, they are two-thirds of the band “Sweatheart” a music project that is gradually climbing the ladder from joke-band-I-started-with-a-couple-of-my-friends to Legitimate Hundred-Plus-Draw-Khyber-Pass- Joe’s-Pub-Scene-Force. Amanda Blank, whose solo rap act is Germantown’s version of Lady Sovereign, and who is the final third of the Sweatheart Triforce, had just returned from a gig in Iceland the night before. She was nowhere to be found. Thom, FYI, is a painter of some renown, creating grotesque homages to various rock-n’-roll icons from his studio in the Space 1026 artists’ collective.

In person, Thom and Rose seemed intent on explaining that their eccentric speech and dress patterns were not ironic so much as earnest attempts to have fun and to encourage others to have fun. We thought this was a great point. You can’t seem to have a good time in earnest, nowadays. Start to lose it on the dance floor, and everyone assumes you’re either vogueing or camping it up. This is apparent on the faces of the contemporary twentysomething dancer. You don’t see any actual abandon. You see people imitating faces they saw in the movies and the magazines. Part of what Thom and Rose and Amanda are trying to do is to loosen these bonds of self-consciousness, to roll the clock back to earlier, more innocent versions of American Bandstand abandon. We discussed the difference between being appropriately dirty, just-plain-dirty, and how to smooth things over after your mom learns that your band’s new single is called “Finger Bangin’.”

But First, The Secret to Aging Gracefully while Keeping Up on All the New Stuff. . .

The Vulture: How old are you?

Rose Luardo: 34.

Thom Lessner 29.

V: Many people stop going out after they reach a certain age. They stop keeping track, stop trying to be “with it.” They give up. They aren’t interested. Or maybe it freaks them out too much, to see the generations cycling through. So they’re like ‘I’m just going to let myself go, I’m going to get some Dockers.’ They ‘lose their edge,’ so to speak. How did you guys avoid succumbing to this?

T: We never got jobs.

R: We never got jobs.

V: How exactly does that play out? Why is not getting jobs the secret?

R: We’re friends with people half our age, and we’re friends with fifty five year-olds.

V: Hang on, how is not getting jobs the secret?

T: Because it is hard. It’s hard to figure out what you want to do and make it work.

R: You have to go above and below your generation to get the kind of perspective that you need.

V: Do you guys have any practical tips? Is there a certain vitamin or jogging routine that you could recommend?

R: We like dancing.

T: Dancing around, going to the jams.

R: Thom goes to the gym.

T: I go to Sweat. I have a personal trainer. She goes by the name of Red Sonja

The Real Secret: Love! Why Houses are The New Rings.

V: Are you two in love?

T: Yeah.

R: Yes.

V: It’s obvious. Everyone can see it.

T: Yeah, the big love.

R: Big love. It’s real.

T: We’re going to buy a house together.

R: You can tell you’re in love with somebody when you are willing to buy a house with them. That’s the first sign of love. Maybe the first sign of love is the willingness to buy the house with somebody.

V: Until then what is it? A crush?

R: It’s infatuation. Maybe lust. You might just be horny.

V: You might be lonely. You might be cold.

R: Exactly.

V: How did you two first meet? Which came first, the band, or the relationship?

T: When we first met I was new in town. And they had a thing, a dance crew, called Devastating Force. And it was Rose, Andrew Jeffrey Wright, Ben Woodward, and Jen Shumo.

R: It was a whole week of dancing. We’d dance at a different club every night. This was 1999.

T: Every once in a while I came too. Nobody introduced me to Rose. She hated me.

V: Rose, please describe the first time that you saw Thom Lessner and the initial impression he made on you.

R: Alright. We are at a place called Shampoo. It is Wednesday night�Goth night! I am wearing my finest Goth regalia, from head to toe. My mouth is a smear of red lipstick. I am peering out from two lightly glazed dark black eyes. I have, you know, my vampire teeth in. I am wearing a torn black lace dress. I have the entire outfit. I’m looking really, really Goth-y.

V: Where does Thom come in?

R: I’m dancing and this older like middle-aged balding lumberjack-looking grad student guy keeps like bumping into me. I’m like “whose friend is this?” He’s got like hillbilly teeth! He has no eyebrows. Whose friend is this? Why is this guy here? No one is introducing me so I don’t know who he is. He’s not dressed in a Goth fashion. I�I just don’t understand. So I keep dancing, dancing away from him. But then it happens again at The 7oo Club . I’m all like “why is this guy all trying to crowd our space and trying to dance next to us?”

V: Thom, what was going on in your head just then?

T: She was kind of cold.

R: Icy. I was totally frosting him out. Eventually a friend told me who he was, and I softened up a little bit.

T: You softened up a lot.

R: Yeah, a lot. But you have to admit, Thom kind of looks like a molester.

V: I never thought so.

R: He looks like a pervert.

V: He was a little shy until he met you, but then you brought out all of his best qualities.

T: That’s right. You’re totally right.

R: Suddenly Thom and I are in this band together. We wrote a song called “White Leather Couch.” And it worked out really well, but it was still kind of awkward and strange. Really, that’s when the glow stick was cracked. We cracked the glow stick.

T: It was doing a song together, a project. It was great. Creative synergy turns into something more, an even greater thing.

R: Now we’ve got the glue. The Elmer’s. Then Thom invited me to be his art slave in Miami .

T: We slept in two different sleeping bags with our heads touching.

V: Had you kissed yet?

T & R: No.

V: You were letting the charge build.

T: Exactly. I think I was crushing on her pretty hard by this point.

R: Tell him about the mushrooms!

T: Oh yeah, we had mushrooms together. And she was really psyched ’cause I was really nice to her and taking care of her.

R: I was so fucked up on the mushrooms, I was like: “Thom, watch me brush my teeth, I was taking him into these little rooms and I was like “Thom, watch me brush my teeth!” I would hide in the supply closet at the art gallery opening. People would walk by and I would jump out at them and start dancing.

T: She did flirty things. Rose would come by and be like “Hey Thom.” And just kneel down on her knees and spit beer on my legs right in front of my crotch. I think that’s when the sparks really started to fly.

R: Why was that?

T: Cause, I don’t know, I think you started to feel comfortable around me. And then we came home and started dating.

V: Where was your first kiss?

T: The warehouse.

V: 1801 N. Howard?

T: Around the corner. 1812. She was kind of putting the moves on me that one night.

V: Who kissed who?

T: I think she kissed me, ’cause I was scared.

How to Make Love Glue, The Bond that Forms the Bonds that Last

The Answer: Projects!

V: Why have you enjoyed such longevity as an art world power couple? Why haven’t you faded like, say, Sophia Coppola and Spike Jonze? Why didn’t the Elmer’s break?

T: We keep lots of projects on. We do lots of shit together. We have other friends though. Some people have their relationships and it’s like only if they hang out every second. But she has her little escape friends.

V: What’s the key to a healthy project diet? What are the vitamins and minerals that you try to get an appropriate balance of?

T: First is Vitamin M: Music! We do the band together. Rose does a lot, but I think I do more.

R: Right, but I also think it’s your band.

T: Yeah. [Turns to Rose. Gets real quiet and sincere. The communication gets intense!] I care more. I want it more. I want it to be good more. So I make it better. She frustrates me a lot, but she also comes through a lot.

V: So you’re the one cracking the whip?

T: Yeah. But that in itself is a project, you know? The project is to have the band. Which is kind of interesting and kind of exciting.

R: What to you think of that, Thom? Do you think it works well?

T: It works well so long as I can be patient about it. If I had it my way, I’d want to be on top of the world and be on tour right now and have three records done and have her with dance moves and perfect harmony. But it’s not my way, so I’ve got to accept it. So yeah, I’m okay with that. Sometimes I think if we were both gung-ho about it that would make it more frustrating. Because the more you do, the more obstacles and shit you’re got to deal with, and the more questions there are.

V: You move too fast and you’ll be forced to make too many choices too early. A bunch of assholes will appear out of nowhere, twisting your arm until you give up a signature.

T: Exactly! I think you trust me enough to let me make a lot of those decisions.

Cooze Wars & Family Values

V: The fact that you can move things around inside the project to keep the relationship strong outside the project… that’s a tricky little dance. Now, I would like to switch gears and talk to you about family. About family, and values. Why do you think it’s so hard for people in their late twenties and early thirties to find the kind of committed, monogamous relationship that you two have? Please bear in mind that this is an election year.

R: Why commit? Why would anybody commit? It’s too easy to get laid. It’s too easy to drop seventy bucks at the bar and get laid. Everything is so… Epicurean. You can do lines off a dude’s dick! I mean who doesn’t want to do that Monday through Friday.

T: There’s a lot of cooze floating around. A whole lot of cooze.

V: Cooze. That means pussy, right?

T: Yeah, pussy. Loose pussy.

R: Loose, loose pussy.

T: There’s some good talent out there.

R: Did you just say that?

T: For me, going out and getting cooze every night is hard too. Being alone is hard too.

R: Do you think you could get laid every night if you didn’t have a girlfriend?

T: No.

R: Do you think you could get laid once a month if you didn’t have a girlfriend?

T: I don’t know.

R: What do you think is holding you back, you, or…?

T: Oh, no, I think I could. I think I could if I really asserted myself. But I’ve never done that. I would like to bench press 300 pounds. I probably could. Just cause I’ve never done it…

R: It sounds like maybe it’s your style to be in a relationship.

T: Definitely it’s my style. So that’s the first thing, I think I’ve always been a kind of a relationship guy.

V: You also work a lot.

T: I do work a lot. I look like a nice older brother. I don’t think I look like ‘oh, I wanna fuck that type of guy.’

R: Let me ask you this. Let’s just have a round table discussion.

V: Yeah, absolutely.

R: Do you think that people want to have relationships? Do you think that people want to have the situation that Thom and I have?

V: Hmmm. My opinion is that a lot of people are very oblivious. They are not aware of what you and Thom have. If they are, they are only aware in the corner of their eye. If they stopped and thought about it, what everyone wants is someone that they can dress like a total idiot with and go out with, but the act is so tight that when you enter the room everyone else will actually feel like they’re the idiots. It’s as if you’ve created your own universe. And that’s evidenced by the fashion. I think people feel that force field and they do want something like that. They just feel as though it’s next to impossible. And they may be afraid to recognize that it’s sitting at the next table.

R: Wow. Thank you. Sometimes I think that it’s really enjoyable for people in the modern world, in the year 2006, 2007 to have no commitment and no responsibility and all of the epicurean delight’s of sex, doing drugs until eight o’clock in the morning and just making enough money to pay your rent and not have to be responsible for reproducing or to be responsible to anybody. The other problem is that you have to get intimate with somebody, and I think to some people that can be a kind of a hurdle. People don’t want to necessarily invest to have to do it.

V: Talk about what it’s like when you two go out. A lot of people, once you find your “partner,” that’s when you stop going to bars, or at least you stop going to the Republican Club on South Passyunk at three in the morning with all the strippers. But you two seem to have stepped it up as a couple.

T: When I dated my last girlfriend, that’s when you never saw me out. When I didn’t date her, that’s when I went out by myself all the time. And now I go out again when I’m with Rose. I’m not the “I’m gonna go get fucked and do some coke” kind of guy. I want to make hump with a girl and then eat a snack with her and then talk about some shit.

R: And then go to the Republican. That shit is fun.

Property: The Kid that Doesn’t Cry

V: So the house. What do you think about homes and real-estate? Should people buy houses? Are you bullish? Bearish? How does this fit in with your vision of the modern family unit? What about marriage? Children?

T: I’m not down for no kids. I don’t think I’ll ever have a kid.

R: Neither do I. Thom and I have a lot of the same values.

V: Did you feel this way before you met?

R: I had my tubes tied.

V: For real?

R: [Shakes her head "no"]

T: I heard it’s not as easy as it sounds. I heard it’s very painful. I don’t want kids because I can’t take care of someone myself.

V: Too expensive?

T: Sure, but that’s not all of it.

V: I see.

T: The house thing is her idea. She thinks our house is too small right now. I go where she goes, so I’m really down to do it and get a new house. It’s going to change some things, but I think it’s exciting. It kind of seals the deal for a handful more years, which is cool. It doesn’t really scare me.

R: I think I knew that I was in love when I was like “you’re the best option ever. You’re the best thing I’ve met. You’re so fun. You’re so much fun to be around.” That’s when it really started to click in, because I think that sometimes when you date somebody, and I’m just speaking for myself, you have this feeling that there’s something better, somebody better for you. Somebody that you should be with. And that kind of puts an expiration date on the relationship. And I don’t have those feelings with you.

V: It’s a hunch.

T: Or a compromise. I hate how this person does this, but they’re really good at this. I think with you I’m like�you’re pretty good at most stuff. Anything that I would be disappointed with doesn’t really matter.

V: How long have you guys been together?

T: Three years.

R: And that’s not even really that long. Something that is really important to me is having a good time, really having a good time. Everything is a good time.

T: That’s true, really actually having a good time. We never seem to lose sight of how good it can be. There’s always that high, high end that you can hit.

R: And I’m chasing the high end. And you fit into that mold. Having you around enhances that good time.

V: You guys play off each other real well. Do you feel like you’re on stage together? There’s the public stage, which is like when you’re in front of your friends at a party, which can be as much theater as a rock show. Do you feel like moving between those two spheres with costumes and semi-appropriate semi-outlandish gear… is there some interplay there? How does the one stage relate to the other?

T: I think I could find a more professional singer and somebody more dedicated to being in the band. But I would never want that, because Rose is such a good performer. You can’t really train that or learn that what she can do. And I think that’s how I look at the band; I want it to be the most fun.

V: You can enter a room full of 200 people and make 198 feel like they’re the idiots because you’re got a strong bond. You can make them feel like they’re on the outside.

The Outside, The Inside, And The Unspoken Sumptuary Laws of The Scene

T: Before 1999 I lived in Columbus, Ohio. I was the weird, witty guy who knew a lot of people in town and was in bands and stuff. I could roll up in funny gear without anyone questioning me or making me feel weird. And then I moved to Philly and I didn’t have the balls for that at all. I had it in me, but I wasn’t going to show up to some weird party with weird clothes on or any kind of act. Then I met Rose and started dating her, and she brought that back out. She’s what got me to start doing that in Philly.

Sweatheart. Mass or Niche?

V: What do you want people to know about Sweatheart?

T: If this were a perfect world, Sweatheart would be in everybody’s face. It’s not a perfect world though, so it’s only in so many people’s faces.

V: Do you want Sweatheart to be in Wal-Mart? Do you want to be on MTV?

T: Well I guess I’d want…

V: There’s nothing wrong with that.

T: That’s a slippery slope, but I wouldn’t mind it. I want it to be affecting as many people as it could.

V: Impact?

T: Yeah, maximum impact! As long as it was still true and fun and what we started out doing. If our morals are just fun and its kind of curious and weird and that’s the underlying message, that’s fine. But if they change the underlying message…

V: What’s the underlying message? What kind of color do you want the impact to make?

T: Our message is “fun.” Inspire someone to be happy, look at us and be like “that’s really fun, dancing around, letting your guard down.”

R: We are trying to take things that we already think are so good and are so much fun Appalonia, Cindy Lauper, Van Halen, and Europe, and Asia, and stadium rock, and dress up and sex, and we mix it all together. I think it’s a mixture of things that people already should like, already tried true and tested good things, good ingredients.

Getting Down to Brass Tacks, What’s the Essence of Cool? The New Wave Rave, The Williamsburg Look, etc.

V: What was Iceland like?

R: Fantastic. Fucking amazing. Out-of-body. I should have just eaten the Hemlock when I was in Iceland. I don’t think any place is going to get better than Iceland. It’s so civilized.

V: What were the people like? What was the landscape like? Was it really cold? Was there a lot of ice?

R: Yes and no. Everyone looks like a Norwegian heavy metal dude, a black metal rocker. Everybody looks like a Viking.

V: Would it be fair to say that people in Iceland are way more… cool… than people here?

R: Not necessarily, because I think we have so much more going on in terms of ways that you can be.

V: Do they have a rapper named Ice Land?

R: Not that I know of.

V: What is the essence of cool? What’s cool right now? And what’s about to be cool? Answer this question straight, please. Don’t act like you don’t know.

R: Well “rave” already made its come back and its exit.

V: Raves?

R: Yeah, I watched it come in like a lion, out like a lamb. The second rave retro wave. That was last summer.

T: The new wave of cool is comfort.

V: Comfort?

T: Yes. You’ll see me in nothing but grey sweats this winter.

R: Say ‘us’ because I have mine on too.

T: I like hygiene a lot. I’d say I’m pretty good at that. Gearwise, I don’t think there’s anything to keep up with. I mean, if you got good style then terrific, but it’s less important for me to floss anything. Rose is good at looking good. There’s a look that’s so big. The look where you’re just like the freestyle dude that looks like he’s from Williamsburg, that look could make itself fly.

V: What look is that?

T: Slicked back hair, jean jacket…

R: …fancy mustache, stubble, serious jeans, serious scowl, hat with the hair coming through it.

T: It looks like you just got laid and left and you haven’t taken a shower. I say that if you’re going to look shitty you might as well be comfortable at it. If I’m going to be comfortable, I think my attitude will be comfortable and at ease and nice and I’ll feel good, and therefore my style will be great.

R: But also, what you’re wearing and how you look obviously affects your conversations with people and how they approach you, how they are around you. So I think something really interesting could happen here, which is that more people will be more comfortable with Thom, and myself, but primarily Thom, wearing his sweatpants everywhere. Everything will have a real chilled out, real laid-back kind of vibe.

V: What else are you into lately?

T: My favorite new bands are Waltham from the suburbs of Boston and Yo Magesty from Tampa. They both rip.

R: Alright, here are mine too, Brazilian Girls and Patrick Watson.

V: What’s so great about Waltham ?

T: They’re fantastic rock and rollers. There like this mid-life crisis dream�dirtier, older, and already probably going through a midlife crisis. That’s just what they sound like when they’re singing. I don’t know much about them but from their lyrics they just sound like some thirty something year old dudes who probably already have two kids and are like, you know, fucking, “Bruce Springsteen is awesome, so is Toto and REO Speedwagon�let’s make a band like that!” And they sound just like it and are kind of those dudes. They’re just a rock band, a really good rock band. Yo Magesty are three rappers. They sound like what you’d want to dance to.

V: What’s great about Brazilian Girls?

R: I saw Brazilian Girls and Patrick Watson when I was in Iceland. As for Brazilian Girls, I don’t think they were Brazilian, and only one of them was a girl.

V: But that’s what they were called?

R: Brazilian Girls , yeah. It was a fantastic show. So fucking good. The lead singer is one of those people who is really talented. She has a really incredible voice. She’s one of those people who is kind of afraid to show her face. So she’s wearing these crazy outfits to hide her face. She’s singing in a giant plastic bag with all this tulle and material over her head and she’s wearing a body suit of glitter and gems and stuff. It was really good music. They did reggae covers and stuff. The other was this guy named Patrick Watson who was like Man Man lite. It was diet Man Man. It was Canadian.

T: I like things that are good for the sake of good. If it’s fucking awesome, it’s awesome. I guess I’m not so into things like that. And it’s not just Vice [magazine]. It’s this whole culture of “let’s be shitty.” I never want Sweatheart to get lumped into that. I don’t want us to be known as this crazy dirty band that talks shit and is crazy. I want us to be about song writing and fun, whether you’re the writer for Vice or some little kid or some old lady or a mom. I want it to just be fun for fun’s sake. If it’s dirty, it’s dirty, but it should be appropriately dirty, dirty because it needs to be or because that makes it funnier. But when it’s just dirty for the sake of being dirty, that’s too easy. When it’s just weird to be weird, that’s too easy, too. I’m a grump. I don’t like the idea of Sweatheart being known as an ironic weirdo band, because that takes a lot of the heart out of it. I’m not going to kid myself and think that everybody’s going to se e it, but that’s how I feel. Maybe the reason I’m protective is that the bands we tend to sound like are bands I love, funny or not. If anybody was to think we were making fun of anything… it’s the opposite. We’re just having fun with it. I love Toto, Van Halen, Thin Lizzy, All Yatch Rock, Journey, etc. I also try to keep it as lighthearted, and as family-friendly as I can.

V: But you guys are a really, really profane band. Do you think you’re appropriate for grandmas, and for other more mature listening audiences?

T: I don’t think we’re so profane.

V: Come on! You guys have a song called “Finger Bangin’.”

T: “Finger Bangin’” is a fun, danceable song. And it has silly enough lyrics. They’re catchy, and they’re silly. It is the kind of thing that I’m a little nervous to play around my mom and stuff, but it’s light enough. Huh. Yeah, it is pretty dirty.

V: Has you’re mom heard the song?

T: Yeah.

R: Yeah, she saw a show.

V: And what was that conversation like?

T: She kind of just pretended like she didn’t notice. She was like ‘I really like the music’. It was a faux pas, sure, but it was okay. I think the gear we wear is where I want the irony to come in. I want to look funny, but also be uniform enough to look really decent as a group. I hope we sex it up a lot, too, but I still keep it pretty mysterious, and a little “off.” Meaning, Rose and Amanda can fit into some pretty tight and revealing tap suits, but they’re so fugly that it’s confusing. Then you throw my hillbilly aspect into the mix, and what you get is a pretty action packed show.